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October 10, 2006, 10:46 AM PDT
Copy never: DRM 'glitch' keeps TiVo Series3, JVC A/V receivers from playing nice
Posted by: John P. Falcone

Universal HD copy-protection notice
Some Universal HD content was flagged...
[+] Enlarge photo
HBO copy-protection notice
...as was some on HBO.
[+] Enlarge photo
viewing is not permitted
Analog video output was a no-go on certain programs.
[+] Enlarge photo
Connecting a TiVo Series3 to a JVC A/V receiver via HDMI seems to awaken an otherwise dormant copy-protection feature in the DVR. At least, that's what happened during testing in the CNET Labs.

We were working to verify that the TiVo delivered the full spectrum of video and audio features via its HDMI output. Video capabilities seemed fine: the Series3 includes a full panoply of user-selectable resolutions and a decent selection of aspect-ratio controls too; it also passed audio to several HDTVs when connected. But anyone who's invested in an $800 digital video recorder is likely to have an HDMI-switching A/V receiver as well, so that compatibility was high on the agenda. We used the JVC RX-D702--it's an older but still current HDMI receiver, and a CNET Editors' Choice for delivering a full range of HDMI features at a very reasonable price. Things seemed fine: we noted that the receiver passed HD video and Dolby Digital 5.1 audio without a problem. Our final test was to verify parallel video output--that the TiVo's standard-definition analog video outputs (composite, S-Video) remained up and running while the box was delivering a high-def picture via HDMI.

Why is that a big deal? Simple: The Series3 box ships with no TiVo To Go features, so you can't transfer your recorded programs to a PC or portable device as you can with earlier Series2 models. As usual, the culprit for this feature step-down is overzealous digital rights management (DRM). The underlying politics notwithstanding--and I recommend everybody check out the excellent Who killed TiVo To Go? feature at the Electronic Frontier Foundation's Web site for a complete overview of the issue--the fact remains that the only way to archive your TiVo Series3 recordings is the old-fashioned way: dump them to a video recorder in real time. Thus the importance of parallel video output. You want your VCR or DVD recorder to have access to a steady composite/S-Video source, regardless of what resolution you're watching over component or HDMI. The issue becomes doubly important if you're using a place-shifting device such as a Slingbox, a Hava, or a LocationFree TV to watch your DVR recordings from a remote location. (For instance, the older DirecTV HD TiVo switches off the composite and S-Video outputs when you watch video at HD resolutions--meaning you constantly have to throttle the resolutions down when archiving or place-shifting--a huge pain. Those outputs on current DirecTV HR20 and Dish ViP622, on the other hand, are always active.)

Our initial test was smooth: we got high-def HDMI output to the JVC receiver and the attached HDTV, and a simultaneous standard-def signal from the TiVo's S-Video and composite outputs (which we were watching on separate monitors). But when we moved onto another program--Revenge of the Sith, recorded off of HBO-HD--the screen suddenly went gray, with a TiVo warning emblazoned across the bottom: "Viewing is not permitted using the TiVo Digital Media Recorder. Try another TV input." Several other programs--Empire of the Sun (HDNet Movies), Simone (HBO-HD), and episodes of Battlestar Galactica (Universal HD) all yielded the same result. Further investigation revealed the culprit: hitting the Info button from the program listing page (TiVo's Now Playing screen) on these programs included a section called "restrictions": "Due to the policy set by the copyright holder, this recording: Cannot be transferred to VCR, DVD, or any other media device. To learn more, visit www.tivo.com/copyprotection."

Visiting that link will reveal apparent culprit: TiVo's Macrovision copy protection. Apparently, these programs were flagged as "copy never," so the box was dutifully following orders, and allowing video only via the copy-protected HDMI output (which is, to date, impossible to record). This isn't new: as far back as 2005, there were reports of TiVo boxes imposing restrictions on the viewing of certain TV shows. At the time, TiVo blamed the restrictions on "false positives"--saying the viewing restriction technology, ostensibly designed for pay-per-view and video-on-demand programming, was being turned on (by the cable companies) to cover a wider array of programming.

When we contacted TiVo about the issues we were having, a company engineer was stumped: he reiterated the same claim from last year, that the content flags should be appearing only on PPV and VOD programs. He suggested that the problem was twofold: our local cable company was "overflagging" its content, and/or the JVC receiver was not properly interpreting the copy-protection flag.

Indeed, when we took the JVC receiver out of the mix, things seemed fine: we couldn't get the gray screen to appear when using the Onkyo TX-SR674, the Belkin PureAV 3-in-1 HDMI Switch, or the Gefen 2:8 HDMI Distribution Amplifier (the only other HDMI-equipped switchers we had on hand), nor could we see it when running the TiVo directly to any of several HDTVs currently in our inventory. Likewise, returning to the JVC RX-D702B yielded the same problem. Perhaps more instructively, the newer JVC RX-D411S (which had just arrived in the CNET Labs) had the same problem when linked to the TiVo as well.

Bottom line: For whatever reason, the JVC receivers and the TiVo Series3 don't seem to be a perfect match. Otherwise, we've found the HDMI capabilities of the JVC receivers to perform admirably--the RX-D702 has been chugging away for months without any problems (and we'll have a full review of the RX-D411 soon). For that reason, we're not docking the JVC's rating (though we've added an Editors' Note explaining the apparent TiVo incompatibility). For its part, JVC wasn't aware of the TiVo incompatibility until we notified them; the company is actively investigating the issue, and we'll follow up when and if JVC issues a statement or a possible fix. In the meantime, if you own both products (and your cable company is flagging your shows), we'd recommend you opt for component video plus optical digital audio connections between the two, rather than deal with the dodgy HDMI issues.

Once again, though, overzealous copy protection has taken something simple and turned it into a Sisyphean ordeal. All we wanted to do was watch TV, and connect our gear with a minimum of cables and wires. Thanks to DRM, that simple task becomes more difficult all the time.

TalkBack
12 messages

JVC A/V Receivers & Dish Network DVR

My understanding is TiVo is used with DirectTV & some cable companies. Has anyone tested/used JVC A/V receivers with Dish Network DVR's? Specifically, the JVC DX-702 HDMI receiver? If so, any problems?
by cnetcom24 (See profile) - January 22, 2008 2:48 PM PST

DRM the death of home entertainment

The entertainment industry in its greed is killing all advantage or technology as a extension of our in home entertainment.

At this rate within the next few years their will be so many restrictions on intellectual property we will be left with just the ability to sit in an evening witha loved one and have a converstion (we would by then have to sign waviers to cover the ownership of any idea that we might convey in that converstion)

It is a wounderful life.

Terry
by hunttw (See profile) - October 17, 2006 12:47 PM PDT
5 out of 5 users found this comment helpful

PLACE-SHIFTING is my right! I am not a thief!

The equipment manufacturers are resposible for fighting this. EVERYTHING, and I mean everything gets passed on to the customer and ya know what? I'm not dealing with it anymore. The RIAA/MPAA are draconian CROOKS and the equipment manufacturers need to step up and tell these guys where to shove their DRM.

I am on my 7th year of no RIAA purchases, my 3rd year on no MPAA purchases, and after this fiasco I guess I'm about to start boycotting Consumer Electronics which further the RIAA/MPAA's DRM efforts.

I will continue vote with my wallet. What is really sad is that I WANT A SERIES 3 TIVO.

But not like this. The fact is that without the Tivo2Go this device would be worthless to me as I watch most of my TV "placeshifted" to my PSP or my Cingular 8125 PocketPC because I travel. I also use my Slingbox when the 3G network signals are good on my phone. So if you guys are interested in my dollars you know what to do.

Until then, keep your lousy DRM out of my life. I refuse to reward you with my money for it.

FYI, I am an artist and musician as well and I do not worry about my IP's potentially lost revenue. If you think this DRM is stopping anyone from copying, you are naive.
by Axiomatic13 (See profile) - October 12, 2006 7:40 AM PDT
10 out of 10 users found this comment helpful

Details are missing...

There are two key details missing from this CNET article:

- What was the channel's CCI value? This is found under one of the CableCARD information screens. On a Scientific Atlanta card, it's the CP Screen.

- What was the HDMI Status value? This is found on the System Information screen, typically the third page.

There is a known issue whereby:

- If CCI is 0x02 (copy once) AND
- If HDMI Status: is "HDCP not enabled"

then the TiVo turns off all video outputs. The video still records, but won't display. If the reviewer had just yanked the HDMI cable, I bet the video would've popped back up on the s-video output. My guess is that HDCP doesn't negotiate properly with the JVC receiver.

This happened to me with my Sony KDF-42WE655 Rear Projection LCD TV. When the TV is initially powered off, the HDMI Status: goes to Not Connected. Everything's fine if HDMI Status: is Not Connected or HDCP Enabled. However, after the TV turns its internal cooling fan off, the HDMI Status: on the TiVo went into a "HDCP not enabled" state. As soon as this state was detected, the TiVo disabled all video output with the grey screen and banner seen in the review. This is a problem for me as I use my TiVo remotely via a Slingbox. For now I've hooked my TiVo to my TV using Component video. My HDMI Status: is always in a "Not Connected" state and I've had no issues since.

As I said, this is a bug/issue that TiVo is aware of. When I called to report this behavior last Sunday, the support person I talked with told me that TiVo's engineers are aware of it. If the TiVo support person CNET talked with wasn't knowledgeable about the issue then that's the fault of TiVo's support personel and the reviewer should've given him/her a poor rating on the phone survey presented after every call to TiVo.

As an early adopter, I expected things like this to happen. It's all part of the bleeding-edge hardware experience. :)
by IceStorm III (See profile) - October 12, 2006 3:49 AM PDT

HDMI Time Warner Cable Boxes/Tivo Problem Too

I have Tivo series 2 boxes connected to Time Warner Cable supplied Scientific Atlanta explorer boxes with dvi output. TWC said I could use the dvi to get pure digital to my Hitachi plasma (5 months old) by getting a cable that ports dvi to hdmi. Worked like a charm until 2 weeks ago when TWC updated the cable box software. Now I get a message that: "YOUR HD TV DOES NOT SUPPORT HDCP. USE NON-HD CONNECTIONS TO WATCH TV"
Called Time Warner Cable and guess what? The only HDMI connections they support are from their own dvr and any Tivo connected to their cable boxes will cause this error.
My solution? I'm having them install a cablecard in my television for watching hd and keeping the cable box solely for Tivo's use.
They actually asked why I'd bother keeping Tivo when I could have their dvr for only $9/month. I asked them what they've been smoking and don't they talk to people that use their crappy software?
Isn't there anyone that can put a stop to these predatory practices on Time Warner's part? They made it very unpleasant to try to get a cablecard when I decided to go that route.
by blitzkrieger (See profile) - October 11, 2006 4:55 PM PDT
5 out of 10 users found this comment helpful | 1 comment

Ironic since CNet shows are copy protected too

I have my home office TiVo set up to download CNet Tips and Tricks. I like starting the day off watching Molly Wood and the CNet team review various tech toys.

Unfortunately, if I want to watch CNet on any of my other Series2 TiVo's I can't. All CNet programming is copy protected.
:)

Maybe you can get someone there to set a good example.

Thanks,
Bill Pytlovany
BillP Studios
by BillPStudios (See profile) - October 11, 2006 3:32 PM PDT

Do you know the reason why?

Because we're theives! All consumers are theives as far as the content providers are concerned.
by airpolgas (See profile) - October 11, 2006 10:45 AM PDT

When DRM Crashes All Be Blamed

Regardless of who is at fault in a scam like this, I believe it is the duty of C-Net to STRONGLY FLAG ALL DEVICES involved in a DRM Crash. Only in this way will hardware manufacturers begin to attempt to regain control over their own devices. If JVC and Tivo were both feeling the pinch of reduced sales regardless of which machine was "technically" responsible, I bet they would start hollering at the idiot content manufacturers to either make DRM TOTALLY TRANSPARENT to the user, ie. NO PROBLEMS EVER!!!, or just trash it outright if they want to ever see a manufacturer make a device to play their stuff. Really, the problem actually lies with neither JVC or Tivo. When a system is designed to break the ability of a player to work in "certain" situations, then that system is going to occasionally fail. And if there were no absurd systems like this in place then there would never be a failure in producing a video image due to strange behaviour of the non-existent DRM software. Something EVERYONE WHO IS A CONSUMER would be in favor of. The only people who benefit from this strange situation are real pirates who can easily crack any DRM and so WANT it in place to make their low cost ripoffs worthwhile in a market place of heavily encrypted and buggy content, and the MPAA who are under the strange delusion that more than 51% of the people who obtain videos would copy them and immediately post them via bit torrents or some other medium. Frankly, the pirates are all crazy anyway. If they charged list price + 10% for their titles, I'm sure most folks would prefer to buy them as they have no encryption, copy protection, can be copied among all devices you own, and modified to play on them all in whatever format they require. Well, nah, not really. I want a legit copy, but it irks me that I have to go through all that hassle to rip DVDs and make myself a criminal by generating an illegal copy if I want to let my kids play the discs without adult supervision.
by Rickardo (See profile) - October 11, 2006 3:16 AM PDT

I have the same problem with my comcast dvr

It will not work through that JVC receiver.
by Doinitin Style (See profile) - October 10, 2006 12:33 PM PDT

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