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DiskWarrior and Leopard: be careful
Running DiskWarrior on startup volumes with Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard installed can have a problematic effect on permissions. The problem, according to Alsoft, is that DiskWarrior includes a repair permissions routine similar the one performed by Apple's Disk Utility, but has not yet been updated to be compatible with the changed repair permissions routine used by Mac OS X 10.5. In other words, running the repair permissions routine in DiskWarrior while booted from the DiskWarrior disk (or booted from any other startup volume) is akin to running the version of Disk Utility included with Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger) -- a no-no if the target of the repair is a Mac OS X 10.5 volume.
Alsoft's support site says:
"You should not use any utility to repair permissions of a Leopard start up disk while started from Mac OS X 10.4.x or earlier. Permissions will either not be be repaired or will be repaired improperly. This is true whether you repair permissions with Apple's Disk Utility, DiskWarrior, or any other third-party utility."
What Alsoft doesn't mention is that permissions problems can ensue not only while running DiskWarrior from a separate Mac OS X 10.4 startup volume, but also when running the utility from the DiskWarrior CD itself (which includes a stripped-down version of Mac OS X 10.4).
The consequences of running DiskWarrior's repair permissions routine in this manner can be steep. As noted last week, one user apparently found applications improperly running as root after the routine. Then there's this MacFixIt reader, who found a bevy of other issues:
"Running DiskWarrior has created 2 serious problems for me in Leopard, and though I have tried to solve them with the help of Apple Tech (I am on the Apple Protection Plan), the issues could not be resolved and they are not telling me to do a timely "Archive and Install". The problems I am having are as follows:
- External devices which are unmounted from the desktop still appear in the finder window until the next re-boot. There does not seem to be a way to get rid of the icons of the external devices that have already been disconnected in the finder folder window (though they no longer appear on the desktop as they have been disconnected).
- When I try to alter and re-save an existing document from any program, including Apple's TextEdit, it won't allow me to do it. I get a message that tells me the following for example: "You do not have appropriate access privileges to save file ?Samples.rtf? in folder ?Desktop?. To view or change access privileges, select the item in Finder and choose File > Get Info.
- I cannot lock changes in the Account Preferences to my admin account after they have been unlocked and in fact it remains unlocked now.
"Can you imagine experiencing this for every document? Apple Tech told me to re-run Disk Utility, which I did, and also they asked me to use my admin privileges to change the my user privileges for all folders, so that I can have the ability to both 'read & write' everywhere. Both trial solutions have not worked for me. The only way I can save a document now is to use 'Save As' which effectively changes the date of the original date of the document."
The solution that worked for this reader, as we've recommended time and time again, is to use the Archive and Install process offered by the Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard DVD.
These issues stand in contrast to Alsoft's initial statement: "you can run the (current version of DiskWarrior under Leopard) knowing no harm will come to the hard drive or to your data,"
We'll reiterate our initial recommendation regarding DiskWarrior: Wait until an updated version (which Alsoft says will be free for current 4.0 customers) is released to run the utility on Mac OS X 10.5 startup volumes.
Feedback? Late-breakers@macfixit.com.
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To quote from the Alsoft website (which apparently MacFixIt does not have the journalistic integrity to do):
1) You should not use any utility to repair permissions of a Leopard start up disk while started from Mac OS X 10.4.x or earlier. Permissions will either not be be repaired or will be repaired improperly. This is true whether you repair permissions with Apple's Disk Utility, DiskWarrior, or any other third-party utility. Regardless of which utility you use, the same service within Mac OS X is used to perform the actual permissions repair so the behavior is always the same.
To repair permissions of a Leopard startup disk, be sure you've always started your Mac from Leopard. Alsoft also recommends using only the Disk Utility included with Leopard to repair permissions until an updated version of DiskWarrior is released.
Note: If you have used any utility to repair permissions of a Leopard startup disk while started from Mac OS X 10.4 or earlier, Alsoft recommends that you perform an upgrade install of Leopard over your existing Leopard install. This will restore any changed permissions to their original values without altering your data.
Let me get this.
Alsoft states very clearly not to repair permissions for a 10.5 disk when you are started up from 10.4 or earlier. You have a Disk Warrior disk that was released long before 10.5 was released. Alsoft states, again very clearly, that they will release a Disk Warrior disk that will boot up in Leopard very soon, but it is not available yet.
Duh, I guess I will boot off my Disk Warrior disk and use it to repair 10.5 permissions. And the fact that you then hosed your Leopard installation is Alsofts fault? And you people at Macfixit somehow find fault with Alsoft rather than with some one who can't read? No such thing as fool-proof, fools are way too "clever".
You people at Macfixit are as foolish as the correspondent. For shame. What do you have against Alsoft and Disk Warrior? This used to be a reputable site. I am afraid that the only way to get your attention is for large numbers of us to not renew and look for an honest trouble fixing site.
I tend to agree. This site is sure not what it was when Ben had it. I am disappointed and sorry I just renewed my subscription. I hope CNET will exercise some humility and get Ben back here.
I didn't realize that this site was under new management...
It does seem to explain why MacFixIt is less useful than it used to be...
I hadn't realized that either! Though I too had noted the discrepancy between what I read on Alsoft and what was said here. Too bad. As my Dad used to say, it takes a life time to build a reputation for honesty and one less the honest moment to destroy it.
MacFixit may have ignored that fact but I haven't, and still had a mess of trouble after running DiskWarrior. I first booted my Mac OS 10.5 Leopard system from the Leopard install disk and ran Disk Utility before re-booting again and running DiskWarrior, and it still created all kinds of permission problems on my system. Alsoft's support response to this issue, received some 7 days after their reported 24 hour email response time, was simply to say that "there are no incompatibilities between DiskWarrior and Leopard, and ignored that fact that my permission problems only arose after running DiskWarrior. A pretty disappointing response and denial of guilt instead of offering a solution or an apology. MacFixit are correct in their warning, but Alsoft (the makers of DiskWarrior) are ignoring that fact. I have used various versions of DIskWarrior over the years and its saved me many times from serious problems, but this time it created a serious problem, which was only repaired through an complete system archive and re-install.
It sounds to me like Clyde may have run Diskwarrior 4.0's permissions repair option, on an OS 10.5 volume, after running OS 10.5's permissions repair option from the OS 10.5 installer DVD's copy of Disk Utility, apparently thinking that this somehow would make his 10.5 volume safe to run Diskwarrior 4.0's permissions repair option on. I assume by "re-booted again", he means he booted from the Diskwarrior 4.0 CD, but even if he meant he rebooted from something else, it wouldn't matter, since the point of this problem is that running Diskwarrior 4.0 either from its CD, or when booted from an OS 10.4 or 10.5 volume, can damage a 10.5 volume's permissions. Just booting from an OS 10.5 volume, and running OS 10.5's Disk Utility's permissions repair option, doesn't make that volume safe for running Diskwarrior 4.0's permissions repair option, which, as far as I know, is the only way for Diskwarrior to do anything to a volume's permissions.
However, Alsoft's support site does not appear to state that Disk Warrior 4 will effect a 'repair permissions' when it is run.
http://www.alsoft.com/DiskWarrior/support.html
I believe this is the discrepancy, an important one that should be resolved.
Diskwarrior's permissions repair option is a separate option available by clicking on its "Files" button--it's not run when you have Diskwarrior just repair a volume's directory. The Macfixit article doesn't say this option is run automatically, but it doesn't specifically state that this option is run only when you select it from the "Files" button. The article could stand some clarification on this matter, to clear up any confusion.
Perhaps, the more interesting questions are the following. How is it that third parties like Alsoft, Prosoft (maker of Drive Genius), Micromat (maker of Techtool) and, previously, Symantec, can make disk utilities which consistently outdo what Apple can produce? Given the above, why hasn't Apple decided to either bundle one of these products with OS X or buy out the company and make them the Utility Software division of Apple?
Apple has been bundling a copy of TechTool Light with AppleCare for some time now. Unfortunately, they do not always insure that said copy of TechTool is compatible with the latest hardware they are insuring, a fact which has been reflected in MacFixIt postings before now.
It is certainly a good policy not to use an older version of a disk/system repair utility on a new version of the OS. Unfortunately, in my experience, many users are oblivious to the risks involved. This is at least in part due to the fact they are not in the habit, as most MacFixIt readers probably are, of keeping their software up-to-date. For them system maintenance is a sometimes thing. For those of us who do read MacFixIt, they warned us when Leopard was first released that we should use our old disk utilities <i>before</i> applying the OS upgrade. Frankly, I don't think you can be too cautious in such matters.
Micromat just released a Leopard compatible version of TechTool Pro - I got mine in the mail today. I expect Alsoft won't be far behind with DiskWarrior. Data Rescue II, by Prosoft, has been updated for OS X 10.5, as have Cocktail and Onyx. Prosoft's Leopard version of Drive Genius is not yet available. But since Data Rescue has been updated, I expect Drive Genius will be out shortly. I don't doubt that these developers are moving as fast as they can to update their products consistent with proper compatibility testing. The one developer who was least careful was Norton and they are no longer developing Utilities for the Mac.<p>---<br>Don't anthropomorphize computers.<br />
They hate that.
There isn't a single bit of HFS+ standard changed on Leopard. That is what people go mad against Macfixit. There will be cosmetic issues but at the end, Disk Warrior may even run under Leopard fine. In fact I tried on a non critical drive.
If Apple released 10.6 tomorrow which uses HFS+ . Disk Warrior will happily fix that drive too. The HFS+ standard won't be changing a single bit. Perhaps, non used extensions will be used but again- They are coded into those commercial tools. E.g. Hard Links used in Time Machine are easily handled by DW.
Even if Apple silently switches to ZFS, Disk Warrior users will be still safe since it will be obvious that it doesn't get a single thing from "Z" filesystem.
The unique inner working of Disk Warrior does make it impossible to "break" things since user will obviously see their 50.000 files will go missing thanks to their "tests" before doing anything.
They have a specific problem with Alsoft down to abusing their support pages to attack them but I have no clue what it could be.
Alsoft could release DiskWarrior Windows version and become a complete hit exactly the moment when people figure how it works.
The uniqueness of disk warrior comes from the fact that it knows nothing about the disk it repairs/checks. It is a patented scheme which makes it the choice among people really have (sometimes million dollar worth) non replaceable data on their drives. The "trick" here is the comparison of "future" drive (down to filenames!) with "current" drive _before_ attempting to fix anything.
I also have Tech Tool Pro license which I destroyed a while ago after figuring their $25 update scam. It was nothing like Disk Warrior and in fact, it couldn't figure disk boot block issues. They blamed Apple for that and it turns out, HFS+ is completely open with source, anyone can check boot blocks on a HFS+ disk and even repair if necessary.
About your very legit question. Would you and millions of other Apple users wait sometimes half an hour to make sure your drive is actually "fixed", not losing precious data over a cosmetic issue? That is how disk warrior works. For example, disk utility can destroy your only copy of CV.doc while trying to fix a easily replaceable system files size. That is where disk warrior like commercial utilities shine.
No developers got a copy of the golden master of Leopard before it was released, which slowed down a lot of developers in releasing Leopard-compatible software, which is part of the reason that most disk utility publishers have only recently released Leopard-compatible versions of their software. Alsoft is a little behind, but they'll catch up soon. But it did take Alsoft about eleven months after the release of the first Intel Macs, before it had a version of Diskwarrior that worked on them. I think Alsoft will have a Leopard-compatible version of Diskwarrior quicker than that, but it illustrates that Alsoft appears to sometimes lag in releasing necessary updates. My impression of Alsoft is that it's now a one or two product company, without as many employees as they once had.
As I thought, not long after these posts, on Jan 23 2008, Alsoft released the Diskwarrior 4.1 CD as the bugfix for this problem.
Now if they would only release their announced free Diskwarrior 4.0 CD updater to bring it up to version 4.1. It's been almost two more months, and that hasn't appeared yet.
What you can't do is Use the Repair Permission button that is a SEPARATE FUNCTION in DiscWarrior, under the Files category. That hoses up Leopard, and Alsoft states very clearly not to do this.
Just so we are clear on what we are talking about. Well, I think I am, anyway...
G5 2.1GHz ? Investigating OS 10.5, don't like 10.4.11, so working in 10.4.10
I'm just waiting for all of these developers to update their products so I can use them on Leopard.
However right I just use "Disk Utility" from the Leopard DVD.
- by khiltd December 3, 2007 4:15 PM PST
- Thank god somebody's here to stick it to those Alsoft fat cats. They've had it too good for too long and it's about time they paid for their crimes of producing software that's generally more useful than anything that's been published on MacFixit in the last several years since it turned into some disgruntled tech support phone operator's personal blog.
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