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September 25, 2009 11:19 AM PDT

Spontaneous Snow Leopard logouts unsettle users

by Joe Aimonetti
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Several Mac users are reporting that Mac OS 10.6 (as well as 10.6.1) will spontaneously log out of their account in the middle of using applications. The issue does not appear to be related to specific applications running as users have reported it happening while using Excel, Word, Safari, Photoshop, and Filemaker Pro among others. Most guesses have the problem related to Rosetta running on the new operating system, though an official fix has yet to be reported.

Apple Support Discussions forum poster "Stu Baker" writes:

I am having spontaneous logouts while I am in Snow Leopard. This is happening a couple times a day and it is very annoying. When it logs out it instantly goes to a blue screen and then the login screen appears. When I log back in all my apps have quit and it is like I am logging in for the first time. I did have this happen in Leopard too, but very rarely.

I attempted to recreate the issue on our Black MacBook running 10.6.1 with Rosetta installed. Since updating to Snow Leopard weeks ago and daily running Entourage 2004, I have yet to experience a spontaneous logout. One forum poster suggested a complete erase and install of Snow Leopard. If you are going to attempt this, be sure to have a backup of all your important data. For now, it may be worth considering the applications you need to run before upgrading to Snow Leopard. If you have a heavy dose of programs that will require using Rosetta in Snow Leopard, you may think about waiting until this issue is officially resolved.

Joe is a seasoned Mac veteran with years of experience on the platform. He reports on Macs, iPods, iPhones and anything else Apple sells. Before joining CNET, he even worked in Apple's retail stores. He's also a creative professional who knows how to use a Mac to get the job done.
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Add a Comment (Log in or register) Showing 1 of 2 pages (47 Comments)
by Steve Maser September 25, 2009 11:43 AM PDT
We are seeing this here. Primarily *only* with the foreground use of a Rosetta application like Eudora Pro, 4D Client 2004 and/or Excel 2004.

4D Client 2004 and Excel 2004 are musts for our business (Excel because of the need for VBA).

Some users have this spontaneous reboot many times a day. Others can go for many days/weeks without a crash. I've not been able to isolate what helps generate the crash. If anybody has any suggestions, I'd love to hear it...
Reply to this comment
by MacFixIt Joe September 25, 2009 11:52 AM PDT
The forums are pretty rampant with suggestions, but it appears the only one that "solves" the issue is completely reinstalling Leopard. As I mentioned in the article, I have been running Entourage in Rosetta since day one and I have yet to experience a logout.

I wonder if the issue is related to multiple apps taxing Rosetta?
by gregs.mailbox October 12, 2009 7:53 PM PDT
I had this problem on a new MBP 15in 2.53GHz. The restarting is not limited to Rosetta. I did a clean install of snow leopard with the 6.1 update. The problem continued even when no apps were running, only the finder. I had to use leopard 10.5.8. The computer came with 10.5.7 installed and a drop in disk of 10.6.
by glyneth September 25, 2009 12:00 PM PDT
This has been happening randomly as well to our users, but we're all still at 10.5. Both Intel MacBooks and my Intel PowerMac tower have experienced this. We can really tell because we force users to log in, so it's not like the screen just "refreshed" and closed all apps - you're back at the login screen, waiting for a password. Mainly happens with Excel 2004 and Word 2004.
Reply to this comment
by MacFixIt Joe September 25, 2009 12:09 PM PDT
Seems to be much of the complaints on the forums as well. Those are heavy resource grabbing programs, especially running through Rosetta. Have you applied the MS updates? Many are blaming the latest updates...
by davert2 September 25, 2009 12:08 PM PDT
Joe, just because YOU weren't able to replicate it, it doesn't mean that a complete reinstall of Snow Leopard will fix the problem. A lot of people have the problem and a lot don't. It could be something related to particular machines, software, etc. Wish we could all submit detailed descriptions of our software and hardware somewhere and have someone do a comparison!

in my case, it ONLY happens when Eudora is front. I'm very tempted to move to MailForge.
Reply to this comment
by iQuacked September 25, 2009 6:42 PM PDT
@davert2 I use Eudora on three different macs using 10.5.x and 10.6.x I have never had Eudora kick me out. I do run it off of a thumb drive so I can go from comp to comp with the client and mail all in one spot. No issues thus far besides being slower than I'l like.

Good Luck with your issue!
by dtrapp September 26, 2009 2:11 PM PDT
I've had this happen at least four times while using Eudora for composing letters under Snow Leopard. There is a certain amount of frustration because content is lost since time machine hasn't backed up recently enough. There is little evidence that much was taxing the processors on my Mini since I had little going on in the background and my composition is typically very slow.
by coldplay9 September 25, 2009 12:14 PM PDT
This is a similar problem we had here. After doing re-installs of 10.5, Archive and Install, fresh wipes, etc., it continued. We narrowed it down to (from Console) Microsoft Excel 2004 running on Mac Mini. Upgraded to Office 2008 and problem was gone. Very annoying.
Reply to this comment
by MacSavers September 25, 2009 12:46 PM PDT
Just for the record, I have a Mac Mini at a client that was completely erased and a completely clean version of Snow Leopard was installed. I used the Migration Assistant after booting up completely in Snow Leopard. This machine experiences this at least four (4) times a day.

After some internet research, Rosetta seemed to be the one most people felt was causing the problem. Turning it off and using software that doesn't require it seemed to work. Many believe that installing the version from the Snow Leopard disk was better than the auto-install when you launch a program that needs it later.

So, I recently did a complete re-install of Rosetta (you can't uninstall it so you can only re-install over the existing files for now), then ran the 10.6.1 update.

So far so good.
Reply to this comment
by tkessler September 25, 2009 1:23 PM PDT
That may be a better alternative to try before doing a complete reinstall of the OS. Using the Snow Leopard disk to replace rosetta and then apply the latest combo updater may fix the problem in a similar way as reinstalling the OS. That being said, a reinstall should also be able to preserve user data and settings, and get computers functional again.
by Steve Maser September 25, 2009 1:39 PM PDT
If it's a different version of Rosetta, can some on confirm this?

This is the "download from Software Update" version

/usr/libexec/oah/translate -b
Baseline: SB3V0_BASELINE_0024
Tag: 22.23

Is the "install from DVD" version different?

(I got the above when submitting BRs on another issue way back...)
]
Reply to this comment
by MikeM_Boulder September 25, 2009 1:45 PM PDT
I have been seeing this issue in 10.5 for over a year now. This is definitely a Rosetta issue, it makes the WindowServer process crash, making the computer log out suddenly and go to the login window (just quit the process in Activity Monitor and you will repeat the problem). I have not found a solution just many complaints. I'm _really_ disappointed to see it continue into S.L. I recommend migrating out of your Rosetta apps (e.g. Microsoft Office 2008 (or even better OpenOffice)).

Mike
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by emike--2008 September 25, 2009 1:49 PM PDT
I've experienced this "blueout" in both 10.5 and 10.6. It happened on my MacPro in 10.5 usually while working in Powerpoint 04. After upgrading to 10.6 it started happening on both the MacPro and my MacBook. On the MacPro, it's happened using Powerpoint again as well as FileMaker Pro 6 (Filemaker running in the background might be a common culprit in both 10.5 and 10.6). I don't recall this ever happening before 10.5.8 on the MacPro machine. I've avoided running Powerpoint and Filemaker at the same time for most of the week and it hasn't happened yet.

On the MacBook, it happened twice while in iTunes. Only thing running in the background on the MacBook is usually Safari even though I now recall having Amadeus II running as well. So maybe there is something to the Rosetta argument in old apps. Since upgraded to Amadeus Pro, so we'll see if that's the cure on the MacBook?
Reply to this comment
by BradMacPro September 26, 2009 2:19 PM PDT
FileMaker Pro 9 or newer was recommended as compatible with Leopard, let alone Snow Leopard. You should check into this as well.
by Makosuke September 25, 2009 2:52 PM PDT
As others are saying here, this has been reported by some people under 10.5 as well, so it's entirely possible it's not new to Snow Leopard.

Either way, the problem definitely doesn't seem universal, so there's a good chance that if the communityh can pin down what the root is it won't even need an Apple update to fix it. Personally I have seen exactly one such spontaneous logout on our dozen 10.5 machines at work running Office 2004 pretty much constantly, and I'm inclined to believe that was unrelated.

My home 10.6 system hasn't had any of these despite pretty heavy Rosetta use, though I did install Rosetta along with the rest of the OS upgrade rather than on-demand later. Hopefully it's something that simple.
Reply to this comment
by jpc September 25, 2009 8:30 PM PDT
I've had 3 WindowServer crashes with 10.6.1 running Rosetta programs: VueScan, Excel and Quicken. It happens with keyboard input. Of course data is lost in any open app. One lead was duplicate or corrupt fonts. I eliminated those, but had one crash after. Never had this under 10.5. Absolutely wish I'd waited before installing 10.6.1.
Here are some links to Apple's discussion board:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=10261503#10261503
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2137230
Reply to this comment
by fredp51 September 25, 2009 10:02 PM PDT
I have experienced this phenomenon - but only when running Photoshop CS. Each time was immediately after pressing a key combination (though I can't remember exactly which keys I pressed).

I thought the logout was a response to my keypress. Question for others": Does it happen spontaneously, or is after you initiate an action?
Reply to this comment
by dlatkinson1 September 26, 2009 8:31 AM PDT
It happened to me as well, mostly when running Excel v.X in Rosetta. I use Excel extensively each day and couldn't live with the constant logouts (losing all of my work in the process), so I bit the bullet and upgraded to Office 2008. No more logouts, but I must say, I miss my old Office v.X. Performance-wise, even under Rosetta, it ran circles around Office 2008.
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by cmstratton September 26, 2009 8:50 AM PDT
I've had this happen only after I did the Snow Leopard 10.6.1 upgrade. I didn't happen with the original version of Snow Leopard installed.

It happens every time I'm in the GoToMeeting application, am sharing my screen, and attempt to resize any program windows, no matter which program.

It just happened this morning in Quicken 2007 when I tried to run a 1-step update when I hit the Return button with the "Update Now" button highlighted to start the process. When I actually click the button it doesn't happen.
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by tkessler September 26, 2009 10:14 AM PDT
For Quicken 2007, get information on it and see if there's an option to run using "Rosetta". If so, ensure that is unchecked and try again.
by tkessler September 26, 2009 10:16 AM PDT
Sometimes applications may have helper utilities that are still PowerPC only, which may be started up when you're running the program. As such, even if the application is coded for Intel, it can still launch Rosetta and potentially suffer from this problem.
by bwickens September 26, 2009 12:08 PM PDT
I have exactly the same problem with Quicken 2007. There is no option in 'Get Info' to uncheck Rosetta. Quicken is fully built on PPC Code. Rumors of a new version say early 2010 with pre-sales in October. Let's hope they are developing in a Snow Leopard environment and not Tiger or something even more dated.
by foneil October 23, 2009 7:03 AM PDT
I noticed this problem in Quicken 2007 for the first time last night. I upgraded to Snow Beast more than a month ago and haven't had the problem until now. Quicken was the only program running. It happened repeatedly. My Mac is less than six months so it shouldn't be hardware related.
by bwickens September 26, 2009 12:05 PM PDT
I have experienced this problem several times and there is one sequence I can replicate that will always cause the 'spontaneous logout' bug.

I launch Quicken 2007 (uses Rosetta, of course), I select the menu Online > One Step Update. I hit the return key to ostensibly select the default "update now' button. Snow Leopard does a fast log out routine, and when I log back in all my programs have obviously quit. Reopening Quicken triggers Quicken to perform repairs to the database as it knows it crashed.

I'd prefer to blame Intuit than Apple, but I guess the juries still out.
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by papaloeh September 26, 2009 5:51 PM PDT
Help! I've updated to Snow Leopard on my iMac. I really should have waited until the bugs were out of it. I have the computer to auto start at 7:30 am., but twice now I've had a cryptic sign (a circle with a line through it) appear on start up, and it refuses to go any further. I've taken this to mean that somehow the system has crashed. After reinstalling the system it works fine again for another few weeks, then crashes again. What's wrong? From what I've been reading on these blogs there seems to be a conflict with Word, which I use. It is really old (version 10.0.0) but seems to work fine. Can anyone help?
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by veggiedude--2008 September 27, 2009 10:39 AM PDT
Sounds like the machine doesn't recognise a system folder on the drive. Run a diagnostic on your hard drive, maybe there are boot errors.
by rsharber September 26, 2009 7:14 PM PDT
Ted, we miss you and your guidance so much!!! Please come back!!
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by D.C.Briscoe September 27, 2009 6:01 AM PDT
I have experienced a lot of spontaneous crashes in Entourage 2008 (12.2.1) running 10.5.8 on a Mac Mini in the last few weeks. The only thing I have identified which seems to cause it regularly is trying to delete a message with attachments when you have only just clicked on it (and presumably it is still trying to list all the aforesaid attachments).

I did the upgrade to 10.5.8 with the combo updater, so I don't think anything missing might have caused it.
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by WhiteDog September 28, 2009 4:36 AM PDT
It would seem the most obvious solution is to migrate your PPC apps to Intel versions, where possible - which would seem to be a good idea in any event, even if you're not having problems. In the case of Eudora, I switched to version 8 a few months ago. It's a work in progress by old Eudora hands at Qualcomm and Mozilla who volunteer there time for the project (so development is slow). You can check it out at https://wiki.mozilla.org/Eudora_Releases. Unlike my old (increasingly less reliable) version 6.2.4, Eudora 8 is a Universal app, which means no Rosetta. It still has its quirks; and version 8.0.0b5 was the first to be able to successfully import my old Eudora mailboxes and settings (the latest version is 8.0b7 [4 Sep 2009]). The new Eudora is based on Mozilla's Thunderbird, with a plug-in called Penelope that provides some elements of the old Eudora interface. Like Thunderbird (and Firefox), Eudora 8 is extensible, though I hesitate to bog it down with extensions and such at this stage of its development (beyond Penelope, of course). But don't expect the new Eudora to look or work exactly like the old model; there is a learning curve. But not only is it faster than Eudora 6, it renders HTML properly. Since more and more e-mail uses HTML formatting these days, this is no small advantage and was one of the main reasons I upgraded. And, unlike "old" Eudora, the new one is free.
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by Steve Maser September 28, 2009 5:52 AM PDT
The problem is there are apps we can *not* migrate to the Intel versions.

While eventually we'll be able to migrate off Eudora Pro 6.2.x and (in-house) migrate off 4D Client 2004 to the newer 4Dv11 client -- we can't migrate off Excel 2004 because "higher up" distributes spreadsheets that use VBA macros.

As Office 2011 (if that's what they call it) is still at least a year away, this isn't a solution for us, unfortunately...


I'm hoping that everybody that is experiencing this problem has submitted a bug report at http://bugreport.apple.com.

Maybe if Apple realizes the seriousness and wide-spread effect of the data loss, they won't hold a fix for this until 10.6.2. (I realize I'm wishing here, but...)
by Fingal September 28, 2009 8:24 AM PDT
I'v had this blueout happen only once. It was during keyboard input, as others reported, but the interesting thing is that the foreground app was Screen Sharing. I was using MS Word but it was on the remote machine (a G5). After logging back in I was able to reconnect and I hadn't lost any work.
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by danbaum September 28, 2009 8:49 AM PDT
I have had the blueout happen when using Microsoft Word 2004. Usually it happens when I try a command-F to find a word in a document. The screen goes blue, all my apps close, and I lose any unsaved work. Would this problem be fixed by moving to Microsoft Office 2008?
Reply to this comment
by coldplay9 September 28, 2009 11:56 AM PDT
Fixed my issue... see above.
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