Entered CNET Catalog: 07/17/2006
SKU: 0012562810300
Manufacturer: Pioneer North America
Manufacturer description
With a big 160GB Hard Disk Drive at your disposal, you can record your favorite TV shows, plus hours and hours of home movies, into temporary storage. Then, you can view them, edit them, or burn them to DVD as keepers. And of course, the DVR-640H-S puts on a great show playing regular DVD movies as well. The built-in 160GB Hard Disk Drive lets you record movies and TV shows for temporary storage. Once they're recorded you can watch them whenever you want, delete them, or burn them to DVD. The DVR-640H-S, with its 160GB Hard Disk Drive, can hold up to an amazing 340 hours of content (at lowest video quality). With Disc Backup, a Pioneer exclusive, you can make a direct file transfer of your home-movie DVD back to the Hard Disk Drive, and from that make as many copies of your home movie as you want, all at blazing speed. With the recording mode set to SEP mode (lowest video quality), you can get up to 10 hours on one disc. Stuck in the middle of a task like setting up a recording? Don't know the next step? Just press HELP, and you'll see an on-screen recommendation on what to do next. This on-screen menu makes all the key functions really easy to operate. Plus, thumbnails from the beginnings of your recordings are shown in full motion with sound. SO, you recorded your favorite TV shows and you included the commercials. When you play your shows back, "Commercial Skip" lets you jump past the ads, 30 seconds at a time. Just press the CM Skip button on the remote. Thanks to the Hard Disk Drive, Chase Play lets you watch, stop, or pause a show - WHILE you're recording it. Amazing, but true. Besides regular DVD movies, you can play your homemade DVDs containing TV content or home movies (HDD/DVD-R/-RW/DVD-R DL/DVD-RAM/DVD+R/+RW/DVD+R DL Recorder, DVD-R/DVD-R DL/DVD-RW (Video Mode and VR Mode Recording, Compatible with CPRM3)/DVD-RAM (Compatible with CPRM3)/DVD+R/+RW/DVD+R DL/DVD). It also plays CDs and CD-R/RW discs with WMA and MP3 files, and its JPEG photo viewer is compatible with Fujifilm and Kodak discs and CD-R/RWs burned from your computer. A built-in TV tuner is included, so you don't have to connect to another component to receive a terrestrial TV signal.User opinions
Select a User Opinion to view: 1 2 3 User Rating:
4.5 stars
out of 3 user reviews
Fantastic, easy to use DVR/DVD writer
Pros: video quality, capacity, DVD compatability, ease of use
Cons: VCRplus is a bit tedious to set up
Review: I had been eying HDD/dvd recorders for a while. I built a multimedia pc for the living room that I use for these functions, but it's a little complicated and uses several different softwares to record, edit, and write DVD's. (My wife won't use it.) The 640, on the other hand, is near perfect. The only thing missing that would make it perfect is tight integration with my cable company (this capability doesn't actually exist). I have the cable company DVR and the dual tuner, series manager, and scheduling are just too convenient. However, it fills up and you have to delete things. With the 640 you have much more space to begin with and you can write video to DVD's. The DVD's I've produced have played perfectly in my PC, a couple of set top DVD players, and XBOX 360.
OK, I confess. I love this device. I've been using it for about 3 weeks. It's very easy to record from the built in tuner and also from my cable company box or other sources. Then it's very easy to edit out commercials, title, and thumbnail. Then you can leave it on the hard drive or do a high speed copy to DVD, or both. A full movie took about 13 minutes to write to DVD from the hard drive. The default quality setting (SP) produces very good video quality. This gives you about 2 hours on a standard writeable DVD (both + and - type media). It will also write dual layer media for somewhat less than double that capacity, but I haven't tried that yet.
My only minor gripe is that the VCRplus is a bit tedious to set up. You basically have to go thru every channel in the VCRplus list and enter the corresponding channel for your system. So, if VCRplus shows SciFi channel as 87, you look up SciFi on your system and find that it is channel 67, then you go to the VCRplus setup and enter this info. Then repeat the process for 100 channels or so. AND, don't make any mistakes or scheduled recording may not work correctly. All the channel entries are initially blank so VCRplus won't completely work until you enter the channels. (You could use the VCRplus codes and then manually enter the correct channel number when you set up the recording. VCRplus will still set the recording time parameters and ask for the correct channel.)
Perfection remains elusive but this unit is fantastic! It's functional, compatable, easy, and produces great results. Highly recommended.
OK, I confess. I love this device. I've been using it for about 3 weeks. It's very easy to record from the built in tuner and also from my cable company box or other sources. Then it's very easy to edit out commercials, title, and thumbnail. Then you can leave it on the hard drive or do a high speed copy to DVD, or both. A full movie took about 13 minutes to write to DVD from the hard drive. The default quality setting (SP) produces very good video quality. This gives you about 2 hours on a standard writeable DVD (both + and - type media). It will also write dual layer media for somewhat less than double that capacity, but I haven't tried that yet.
My only minor gripe is that the VCRplus is a bit tedious to set up. You basically have to go thru every channel in the VCRplus list and enter the corresponding channel for your system. So, if VCRplus shows SciFi channel as 87, you look up SciFi on your system and find that it is channel 67, then you go to the VCRplus setup and enter this info. Then repeat the process for 100 channels or so. AND, don't make any mistakes or scheduled recording may not work correctly. All the channel entries are initially blank so VCRplus won't completely work until you enter the channels. (You could use the VCRplus codes and then manually enter the correct channel number when you set up the recording. VCRplus will still set the recording time parameters and ask for the correct channel.)
Perfection remains elusive but this unit is fantastic! It's functional, compatable, easy, and produces great results. Highly recommended.
User Rating:
5.0 stars
out of 3 user reviews
The best thing since sliced bread !!!
Pros: Works exactly like Tivo!! I can't believe how good this is all the way around!!
Cons: Does not record High Definition but it does record from the output of my HD TV no matter if it's a HD broadcast or not
Review: This DVD Recorder/Tivo, oh, did I call it a Tivo, that's because it is just like one. The only thing you have to to is make sure and hit the record button and it will work just like a Tivo using the Chase/Play function. I timed the delay from actual live TV and it is only 10 seconds. My cousin has Tivo and the delay on it is 7 seconds so it is the same thing. I wasn't sure about purchasing this at first because you didn't see alot on the Chase/Play function but I soon found out it is perfect.
My TV is a Hitachi 57" 2005 model rear projection TV and it has a built in HD tuner in it so I was worried about how I was going to hook it up exactly to enable me to get what I wanted out of it. I hooked it up in line with my Comcast cable TV just like you would a VCR and then took the output of my HDTV and put it into the L1 input of the Pioneer DVR-640H-S and no matter what channel I'm on I can record it through the Pioneer. I can even be on a HD channel and it comes out of my monitor output of my TV as an analog channel but looks almost as good as digital HD. This recorder is amazing. I've only used the HDD so far so I haven't been able to explore everything but from what I've heard about the DVD recorder side of it, I shouldn't have a problem with anything. This is the perfect device for somebody that doesn't want to full with the $15/month fee of Tivo and still get extremely close to the same functions of a Tivo but this device has even more features to offer on top of that.
My TV is a Hitachi 57" 2005 model rear projection TV and it has a built in HD tuner in it so I was worried about how I was going to hook it up exactly to enable me to get what I wanted out of it. I hooked it up in line with my Comcast cable TV just like you would a VCR and then took the output of my HDTV and put it into the L1 input of the Pioneer DVR-640H-S and no matter what channel I'm on I can record it through the Pioneer. I can even be on a HD channel and it comes out of my monitor output of my TV as an analog channel but looks almost as good as digital HD. This recorder is amazing. I've only used the HDD so far so I haven't been able to explore everything but from what I've heard about the DVD recorder side of it, I shouldn't have a problem with anything. This is the perfect device for somebody that doesn't want to full with the $15/month fee of Tivo and still get extremely close to the same functions of a Tivo but this device has even more features to offer on top of that.
User Rating:
4.5 stars
out of 3 user reviews
Even better than last year's 53x/63x series! No TVGOS!
Pros: Improved rec. quality, same great features and usability.
Cons: Show names entered in timer rec. programs do not transfer to recordings listed in Disc Nav.
Review: This is an IMPROVED version of last year's "Editor's Choice" model, without the problematic TV Guide On Screen (TVGOS). Now has VCR+.
Improved recording quality...4-hr LP mode now has the same resolution/quality as 2-hr SP mode (720 x 480, the DVD standard).
Multi-format...now plays and records all formats: -R/RW/DL, +R/RW/RDL, -RAM.
Records dual-layer discs seamlessly, i.e., without stopping for layer change.
Unique record modes...still the only DVD recorder that has 32 optional "MN" modes, which allow you to more closely match your rec. speed/quality with the show or movie run-time, in 10-minute increments, e.g., 1h:20m, 2h:10m, 3h:40m, etc. With these MN speeds, you don't need to "go long" to the next standard rec. mode (SP, LP, EP, etc.). Also has "Optimized" mode, which allows you to record something at the best quality that will fit on a DVD, e.g., record a 3h:30m show so it will fit on a single-sided DVD.
High-speed copy to/from DVD...approx. 10 min. to finalized DVD.
Simpler, more elegant remote...keys bigger, wide-spaced, more versatile. Excellent for daily "users," For heavy "editors," some useful keys behind sliding door (# keys, Clear, Display, and some others).
Same great editing features.
Only "fault" is that show names you enter in timer rec. programs do not get transferred to recordings list in Disc Navigator. (Maybe a future firmware update will correct this?) This leaves only the normal day, date, time, etc. as show "name."
Improved recording quality...4-hr LP mode now has the same resolution/quality as 2-hr SP mode (720 x 480, the DVD standard).
Multi-format...now plays and records all formats: -R/RW/DL, +R/RW/RDL, -RAM.
Records dual-layer discs seamlessly, i.e., without stopping for layer change.
Unique record modes...still the only DVD recorder that has 32 optional "MN" modes, which allow you to more closely match your rec. speed/quality with the show or movie run-time, in 10-minute increments, e.g., 1h:20m, 2h:10m, 3h:40m, etc. With these MN speeds, you don't need to "go long" to the next standard rec. mode (SP, LP, EP, etc.). Also has "Optimized" mode, which allows you to record something at the best quality that will fit on a DVD, e.g., record a 3h:30m show so it will fit on a single-sided DVD.
High-speed copy to/from DVD...approx. 10 min. to finalized DVD.
Simpler, more elegant remote...keys bigger, wide-spaced, more versatile. Excellent for daily "users," For heavy "editors," some useful keys behind sliding door (# keys, Clear, Display, and some others).
Same great editing features.
Only "fault" is that show names you enter in timer rec. programs do not get transferred to recordings list in Disc Navigator. (Maybe a future firmware update will correct this?) This leaves only the normal day, date, time, etc. as show "name."
Updated
For over a year, I've been using the Pio 531's Clear button and now the 640's Erase button to get rid of stuff in Disc Nav.
Since posting my opinion above, I've found a "much easier" way, esp. considering the 640 hides the Erase button behind the sliding door?
Now, I highlight a recording to delete...you have to do this anyway... then press the right-arrow key and select "Erase."
I also used, for the 1st time, the "Multi-Mode" feature in the right-side menu, below Erase. Without selecting anything in Disc Nav., I right-arrowed, selected Multi-Mode (Up key), left-arrowed back to the Disc Nav., checked (with Enter key) the 10 or so recordings I wanted to delete, right-arrowed to Erase, answered "Yes" and they were all deleted at once. Before, I was selecting each recording, pressing "Clear", and answering Yes to each one individually!
The latter "sounds" harder than it really is...using the large, multi-functional, left-right arrow keys and Enter button in the center makes almost every important function easier to do!
For over a year, I've been using the Pio 531's Clear button and now the 640's Erase button to get rid of stuff in Disc Nav.
Since posting my opinion above, I've found a "much easier" way, esp. considering the 640 hides the Erase button behind the sliding door?
Now, I highlight a recording to delete...you have to do this anyway... then press the right-arrow key and select "Erase."
I also used, for the 1st time, the "Multi-Mode" feature in the right-side menu, below Erase. Without selecting anything in Disc Nav., I right-arrowed, selected Multi-Mode (Up key), left-arrowed back to the Disc Nav., checked (with Enter key) the 10 or so recordings I wanted to delete, right-arrowed to Erase, answered "Yes" and they were all deleted at once. Before, I was selecting each recording, pressing "Clear", and answering Yes to each one individually!
The latter "sounds" harder than it really is...using the large, multi-functional, left-right arrow keys and Enter button in the center makes almost every important function easier to do!
Updated
The "Optimized" recording quality (mode) is for Copying from HDD to a DVD. It fits the program on a single-layer DVD by setting the "best" bit rate for the length of the original show on the HDD.
For original Recording, there is a similar mode but it is called "AUTO." This fits a show on a single-layer DVD (if recording to DVD), or sets the "best" bit rate for a show recorded to the HDD (i.e., so that, if/when you decide to put the show on a DVD, it will fit, no matter what the length of the original is).
The "Optimized" recording quality (mode) is for Copying from HDD to a DVD. It fits the program on a single-layer DVD by setting the "best" bit rate for the length of the original show on the HDD.
For original Recording, there is a similar mode but it is called "AUTO." This fits a show on a single-layer DVD (if recording to DVD), or sets the "best" bit rate for a show recorded to the HDD (i.e., so that, if/when you decide to put the show on a DVD, it will fit, no matter what the length of the original is).
Updated
I just loaded 581 jpg pics from my USB Flash Drive on the 640's hard drive. Now I can show everyone my Auntie's warts on my 51" TV...it has 2X and 4X Zoom...OMG!
Next, I'm going to load my music CDs and see how that works too.
I just loaded 581 jpg pics from my USB Flash Drive on the 640's hard drive. Now I can show everyone my Auntie's warts on my 51" TV...it has 2X and 4X Zoom...OMG!
Next, I'm going to load my music CDs and see how that works too.
Updated
Loading pics and music on the 640's HDD is really easy.
I copied 1.5GB of JPG pics from a Flash Drive to the HDD in 42 minutes. You can also copy pics from a CD, DVD or other USB device. Now, I can do a "Slideshow" on instant notice. You can even rotate pics in the 640, and make "custom" slideshows out of pics already on the HDD, then copy to DVD for all the relatives...they'll be so pleased (hah!).
Pics must be in JPEG/JPG format. Insert the USB device and the machine finds ALL the jpg pics and reproduces the folder/file structure as it was on the USB device, names and all.
Can also print from PhotoViewer, but haven't tried that yet.
I also copied some music to the HDD. Can copy CD, WMA and MP3 music. There are two ways to copy: from CD or from USB device (e.g., flash drive). The copy from CD is in real-time. Fastest way to get music on HDD is copy/"rip" in computer with Media Player, which is a high-speed copy, then put on a flash drive and copy to the HDD, which is also high-speed. I don't have any MP3 music but assume it can be copied from CD (?) or from the MP3 player via USB?
Music copied to the HDD gets date and time for album name, which you can change once on the HDD. Tracks just get numbers.
Loading pics and music on the 640's HDD is really easy.
I copied 1.5GB of JPG pics from a Flash Drive to the HDD in 42 minutes. You can also copy pics from a CD, DVD or other USB device. Now, I can do a "Slideshow" on instant notice. You can even rotate pics in the 640, and make "custom" slideshows out of pics already on the HDD, then copy to DVD for all the relatives...they'll be so pleased (hah!).
Pics must be in JPEG/JPG format. Insert the USB device and the machine finds ALL the jpg pics and reproduces the folder/file structure as it was on the USB device, names and all.
Can also print from PhotoViewer, but haven't tried that yet.
I also copied some music to the HDD. Can copy CD, WMA and MP3 music. There are two ways to copy: from CD or from USB device (e.g., flash drive). The copy from CD is in real-time. Fastest way to get music on HDD is copy/"rip" in computer with Media Player, which is a high-speed copy, then put on a flash drive and copy to the HDD, which is also high-speed. I don't have any MP3 music but assume it can be copied from CD (?) or from the MP3 player via USB?
Music copied to the HDD gets date and time for album name, which you can change once on the HDD. Tracks just get numbers.
Updated
The Pio's unique MN rec. modes not only allow you to get "closer" to the running time of many odd-timed shows, but more importantly, they allow you to estimate the show run time AFTER REMOVING COMMERCIALS, then recording at that much better rec. mode/speed.
For example, many 2-hour movies have approx. 25 minutes of commercials, so ACTUAL movie time is 1 hr-35 min., or 95 min.
If you use a recorder without any "special" rec. modes, you'd have to record in SP mode (120 min.) to fit that 2 hours on a DVD.
With the Pio MN 25 rec. mode (95 min.), you could (if you wanted) record at better-than-SP quality, erase commercials on the HDD, and make a high-speed copy to DVD at "superior" quality for that movie.
This becomes even more important as show or movie time goes beyond 2 hours, where you'd normally have to go down to LP mode quality to fit on a 2-hr DVD.
Of course, this is only truly important to someone who would like to maximize quality in all his/her recordings.
The Pio's unique MN rec. modes not only allow you to get "closer" to the running time of many odd-timed shows, but more importantly, they allow you to estimate the show run time AFTER REMOVING COMMERCIALS, then recording at that much better rec. mode/speed.
For example, many 2-hour movies have approx. 25 minutes of commercials, so ACTUAL movie time is 1 hr-35 min., or 95 min.
If you use a recorder without any "special" rec. modes, you'd have to record in SP mode (120 min.) to fit that 2 hours on a DVD.
With the Pio MN 25 rec. mode (95 min.), you could (if you wanted) record at better-than-SP quality, erase commercials on the HDD, and make a high-speed copy to DVD at "superior" quality for that movie.
This becomes even more important as show or movie time goes beyond 2 hours, where you'd normally have to go down to LP mode quality to fit on a 2-hr DVD.
Of course, this is only truly important to someone who would like to maximize quality in all his/her recordings.
Updated
I stated above that the Pio 640 now has the same resolution for both SP and LP modes, 720 x 480.
However, the bit rate that the machine writes to disc IS still different, being approx. 3 Mbps for LP and 6 Mbps for SP. That difference is not noticeable on typical TVs for movies, sitcoms, etc., but for fast-moving sports, the difference will show up in "rougher" edges on moving objects in LP mode. Still "tolerable, tho'.
I stated above that the Pio 640 now has the same resolution for both SP and LP modes, 720 x 480.
However, the bit rate that the machine writes to disc IS still different, being approx. 3 Mbps for LP and 6 Mbps for SP. That difference is not noticeable on typical TVs for movies, sitcoms, etc., but for fast-moving sports, the difference will show up in "rougher" edges on moving objects in LP mode. Still "tolerable, tho'.
Updated
I keep finding new stuff on my 640. Thru some tests of the LP (4-hr) rec. mode, I found that sports that are BROADCAST in high quality are actually quite good at LP mode. Slightly "rough" edges only seem to appear when the original broadcast is poor or shown on tape.
I noticed that many ESPN sports talks/recap shows use taped segments, some of which are surprisingly poor. Those show the effect of the slower LP mode way, whereas a live broadcast on Fox or ESPN, which broadcast in 720p, are quite good...it's really hard for me (anyway) to notice any degradation in PQ.
I'm using std cable service, with my Pio 640 connected via Composite (yellow, red, white RCA) cables to a 51" rear-projection TV. If I were to connect via S-Video or, especially, Component cables, I believe the PQ would be "outstanding," even at LP.
In fact, I went many steps further on a good broadcast of a football game, using ALL the normal rec. modes + MN1, the very slowest speed/lowest quality.
Only the MN1 was "objectionable"...I could "accept" even the next lowest quality, SEP, if I just wanted to see the game later. For "archiving," of course, you'd want the best quality, esp. since you never know what kind or size of screen you'll be seeing the game on in the future!?
Of course, all this is very subjective...just my personal opinion.
I keep finding new stuff on my 640. Thru some tests of the LP (4-hr) rec. mode, I found that sports that are BROADCAST in high quality are actually quite good at LP mode. Slightly "rough" edges only seem to appear when the original broadcast is poor or shown on tape.
I noticed that many ESPN sports talks/recap shows use taped segments, some of which are surprisingly poor. Those show the effect of the slower LP mode way, whereas a live broadcast on Fox or ESPN, which broadcast in 720p, are quite good...it's really hard for me (anyway) to notice any degradation in PQ.
I'm using std cable service, with my Pio 640 connected via Composite (yellow, red, white RCA) cables to a 51" rear-projection TV. If I were to connect via S-Video or, especially, Component cables, I believe the PQ would be "outstanding," even at LP.
In fact, I went many steps further on a good broadcast of a football game, using ALL the normal rec. modes + MN1, the very slowest speed/lowest quality.
Only the MN1 was "objectionable"...I could "accept" even the next lowest quality, SEP, if I just wanted to see the game later. For "archiving," of course, you'd want the best quality, esp. since you never know what kind or size of screen you'll be seeing the game on in the future!?
Of course, all this is very subjective...just my personal opinion.
Updated
There is now a firmware fix for the only "con" I had about the Pio 640. It has been tested by users and it works...titles you enter for a timer rec. program, such as "Soaps" or "General Hospital", will transfer to the recorded program that shows up in Disc Nav.
Before this fix, only the date, time, channel, etc. showed in Disc Nav.
Right now, older units have to be sent to Pioneer for the fix, but there is talk of it being available in the future on a CD/DVD, like other firmware fixes are usually distributed. Apparently, the service centers want to make sure the fix is applied properly and it works before they let users do the fix themselves?
Units manufactured after Feb. 15 or so (?) should have the fix already in place, altho not sure any were actually mfgd after that date???
I don't plan to get mine updated until the fix is available on disc since I'm so used to VCR recordings anyway, which never have a program title in the timer program, and you can't see a recorded program's title either. I use the thumbnail images to see the content of a recorded show, as well as the small Genre symbol the Pio has for categorizing programs (only 10 of those but they help).
There is now a firmware fix for the only "con" I had about the Pio 640. It has been tested by users and it works...titles you enter for a timer rec. program, such as "Soaps" or "General Hospital", will transfer to the recorded program that shows up in Disc Nav.
Before this fix, only the date, time, channel, etc. showed in Disc Nav.
Right now, older units have to be sent to Pioneer for the fix, but there is talk of it being available in the future on a CD/DVD, like other firmware fixes are usually distributed. Apparently, the service centers want to make sure the fix is applied properly and it works before they let users do the fix themselves?
Units manufactured after Feb. 15 or so (?) should have the fix already in place, altho not sure any were actually mfgd after that date???
I don't plan to get mine updated until the fix is available on disc since I'm so used to VCR recordings anyway, which never have a program title in the timer program, and you can't see a recorded program's title either. I use the thumbnail images to see the content of a recorded show, as well as the small Genre symbol the Pio has for categorizing programs (only 10 of those but they help).
Updated
The Pio 640 manual has instructions for changing the remote control code when the default code also operates other equipment, such as cable boxes, TIVOs, etc.
The instructions are on pg 117, but they've left out an important part:
AFTER changing the code for the 640 itself to #2 or #3, using the INITIAL SETUP > OPTIONS > REMOTE CONTROL CODE menu, you then must press and HOLD the RETURN and #2 or #3 buttons down for 3-5 sec., or until the display on the machine changes from INIT SETUP to its normal display (time, etc.).
Once you see the display change, you can release the buttons.
Make sure you use #2 or #3 since the default code is #1, and that's prob. the code that previously operated your other equipment as well.
The Pio 640 manual has instructions for changing the remote control code when the default code also operates other equipment, such as cable boxes, TIVOs, etc.
The instructions are on pg 117, but they've left out an important part:
AFTER changing the code for the 640 itself to #2 or #3, using the INITIAL SETUP > OPTIONS > REMOTE CONTROL CODE menu, you then must press and HOLD the RETURN and #2 or #3 buttons down for 3-5 sec., or until the display on the machine changes from INIT SETUP to its normal display (time, etc.).
Once you see the display change, you can release the buttons.
Make sure you use #2 or #3 since the default code is #1, and that's prob. the code that previously operated your other equipment as well.
Updated
An updated firmware, V6.20, is available for download online at
http://www.pioneerfaq.info/index.php?question=Firmwares
It's about 3 screen pages down with the title and text as follows:
Canada/US
DVR-543H/640H
Firmware 6.20* ONLY Region 1 US/Canadian version ONLY.
There is lots of discussion and tips in the AV Forum at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=dbbf946aa055af3f767ab07c15e55069&p=10396426&&#post10396426
An updated firmware, V6.20, is available for download online at
http://www.pioneerfaq.info/index.php?question=Firmwares
It's about 3 screen pages down with the title and text as follows:
Canada/US
DVR-543H/640H
Firmware 6.20* ONLY Region 1 US/Canadian version ONLY.
There is lots of discussion and tips in the AV Forum at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=dbbf946aa055af3f767ab07c15e55069&p=10396426&&#post10396426
